From college dropout to acclaimed designer to CEO of project-management pioneer Flow, Daniel Scrivner’s path to success has been anything but typical — and he wouldn’t have it any other way. It only took one web design class over a summer break in high school, and Daniel was hooked. He would eventually drop out of college to focus on mastering the art and science of design, first honing his talent as a freelancer, then joining an LA-based advertising firm in 2007. Barely a year later, he relocated to San Francisco to take a coveted design position at Apple. After three years of soaking up every bit of insight and wisdom he could, Daniel left Apple and joined the team at a small but promising startup: Square. He quickly worked his way up to Director of Design, responsible for overseeing everything from product design to video production. In his time at the company, he left his fingerprint on almost every aspect of Square’s design aesthetic. Daniel left Square in 2016 to found his own design counsel and venture capital firm, Blackletter Ventures. Then, in February 2019, he took over as CEO of Flow. He’s spent the last year slowly, methodically, and tirelessly reinventing their product from scratch. Under his leadership, the business is back to profitability and growth — and he’s just getting started.
We Talk About
As a new angel, how does one get access to early-stage deals?
Bay Area to Colorado, why make the move?
What are the next steps you plan on taking with Flow?
Connect with Daniel
Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielscrivner/
Flow Website https://www.getflow.com/?utm-source=linkedin
CONNECT WITH SHAWN
- Shawn Flynn’s LinkedIn Account
- Silicon Valley LinkedIn Group Account
- Shawn Flynn’s Facebook Account
- Email Shawn@thesiliconvalleypodcast.com
Announcer 00:00
You’re listening to the Silicon Valley podcast.
Shawn Flynn 00:02
Welcome to part two of our interview with Daniel Scrivner. Now in part one, we talked about his time at square. And we talked a little bit about turnover at startups a lot more of his time in the startup ecosystem. But now in part two, we’re really going to find out about his time right now at flow is leaving Silicon Valley. And well, let’s just dive right into it. So let’s start the episode. Alright, enjoy.
Announcer 00:28
Welcome to the Silicon Valley podcast with your host, Shawn Flynn, who interviews famous entrepreneurs, venture capitalists and leaders in tech, learn their secrets and see tomorrow’s world today.
Shawn Flynn 00:46
You would also mention that, through your experience, you realize that getting access to the best deals was the most important thing. As a new investor, what advice can you give on how to go about getting that access to those early deals?
Daniel Scrivner 01:01
You know, unless you are famous on social media, somehow you are some, you know, kind of well-known investor or well-known entrepreneur or well-known executive. And if you’re any of those things, you can definitely get access to deals, I just, I think it’s helpful to take a step back and talk about what do we what does that actually mean get access to deals because I think that helps me maybe might help people understand why I’ve taken the approach that I have. So getting access to deals is a multi part problem. And one is knowing, knowing interesting entrepreneurs with companies that are going to be raising round soon that are venture backed, where you could be an investor. So that’s one part. Part two is, you know, honestly, like, not you see all the time on Twitter VCs, you know, and this is one of my, I find it somewhat hilarious, where people will tweet things like, here’s, here’s the five deals I should have got into. But I said no. And they do it as if it’s not going to happen again. And they’ve learned all their lessons. And I’m sorry, but like, every, there will always be deals that you miss, because it’s not the right time, you’re not ready to make that allocation, you didn’t know that the round was happening. And you happen to not catch up with that entrepreneur this month. And you’ve done it for the last six months, and you miss the moment, you know, the news that they’re raising this round. And there’s a myriad of reasons why you either won’t know the right companies won’t have personal access to those rounds yourself. And so I think for most people think you have to really sit down and know, in a very warts and all way, what you’re going to be able to be successful at getting access to and what you want. And so really sitting down and thinking like, Do I know entrepreneurs, personally, that I’m going to be able to reach out to them and get allocations around? Will they be excited to have me in the round, because that’s another piece too is a lot of people just think like, oh, if people just know my name, that will help. That’s not really it. You know, a lot of like, a lot of entrepreneurs, if they’re doing it, right, they care a lot about who’s on their cap table, because those are people that are not going away until there’s some sort of a liquidity event. And you know, your investors are with you through the life of a company, for better or worse most of the time. And so there’s a bunch of reasons. And so I just, I’m trying to throw out a handful of those to give people a sense, for all the reasons that they may not be able to get into a round. And that’s why I think in access class, in my mind is I have and the way I’ve tried to think about it at a high level is, through my experience, through my connections, I have access to a very small spectrum of deals, you know, and their deals largely of people I’ve worked with at companies like square, who are now founders and entrepreneurs that are raising rounds themselves. Those are deals I can get into as your network grows, you can kind of get into deals from a secondary point of view of like, I know this person, he knows this entrepreneur, he just invested, I think it’s really interesting. I’d like to invest as well to kind of sit down and do that assessment, really honestly, and try to figure out, what did those companies look like? Because I think some of the things you also want to think about are like, and this is true for most people. Again, if you’re only investing out of your personal network, you’re likely only seeing deals in a very small vein of industries, or you’re seeing founders that are pursuing a similar strategy. Or if you worked at Snapchat, or Snapchat, you’re seeing people that are constantly doing social products. And I think another thing too, and the reason I’ve done 100 plus investments and tried to be very agnostic about how I get access to those is, again, you’re trying to get access to the best deals. And really important secondary point is I think you should also try to get access to the best deals in a broad spectrum of industries. I think most people if they sit down and do that kind of reflection, they’ll come to the same conclusion I did, which is yes, maybe you have access to some deals, it’s probably not going to get you the diversity that you want. And it’s probably not going to get you into all of the types of companies that you’d like access to. Cool. So where do you go from there? Well, the two things that I pursued you know, initially it was investing through syndicates, which are now robot syndicates are moving to be rolling funds. But that’s a great way to basically say, Hey, I likely wouldn’t be able to get into this round myself. You do and you’re gonna see different deals, different founders. You’ve got a different network that I do. If all I care about is getting into the best deals, and if I invest in this deal, I have to give you 20% of my returns. That is not I mean, like, and for anyone who’s done venture investing, when you have the types of outcomes you can have in venture investing, you realize really quickly that all day long, you will pay someone 20 to 25% of the profits you generate, if they can get you really incredible returns. And so I think, you know, I started investing through syndicates. And again, I would just encourage people to maybe think about all the ways that they can access early-stage companies, and those are everything from directly in friends and family rounds, you know, and again, there’s a bunch of other crimes, you have to be an accredited investor, you have to have capital at, you know, check sizes that people want to write. So you can invest directly, you can invest through vehicles, like syndicates, you can reach out to venture capital funds and say, Hey, I’m not going to be an institutional investor in your next round and ratio of $50 million check. But I can help your companies in these ways. And I think I can add value to what you do in these ways. I would love you know, because a lot of venture funds, people don’t know it, but they have sidecar vehicles, they have vehicles for advisors, they do typically reserve some allocation for individuals. And think about all of those in be very open minded about again, what are you trying to do, you’re trying to get into the best deals. Why? Because venture is inherently a power law game. And a very small amount of the winners account for most of the capital and the returns that actually get generated. With all of that in mind, really think about how when what was your best setup to access that in a way that you can get access to the best deals across industries in is agnostic and diversified away as possible?
Shawn Flynn 06:40
When you’re looking at deals from an individual company versus invested in a fund? What’s the difference in underwriting that you do for those investments? How are you looking at them differently?
Daniel Scrivner 06:52
It couldn’t be more different. If I’m investing in a fund really the answer? Really, what I’m trying to kind of answer for myself is, do I think that this fund can have it will be able to see and get access to and invest in meaningfully different deals than I would be able to get access to individually because again, if you’re taking and this is why at all, at the end of the day, it all boils down to and I would I’ll just say it now, anyone listening has to figure out this equation for themselves. Do not borrow anyone else’s equation or idea about how to invest you have to do that homework yourself, don’t borrow it. Don’t kind of just take someone’s point of view and take that on and really think about what’s going to work best for you. For me, like I said, I was already doing deals individually. And so funds inherently is like I’m adding another ingredient into that mix. so on. And so for me, I’ve continued to write deals individually, I’ve continued to kind of be a GP, and invest in larger deals and have LPs invest alongside me, anything that I’m doing is in addition to those direct investments, and so if you don’t do direct investments, then investing in a fund might be a very different exercise. And maybe you are really looking at their historical portfolios. And you’re trying to talk to the entrepreneurs that they invested in, find out are they someone that they loved having on as an investor? Why? How were they able to add value? How do you think they stand out for other entrepreneurs in the space looking to raise capital? You know, and you really want to if you’re not investing in deals directly, then I think you want to ask some of those questions and look into those things. But you also want to just understand some of their preferences, like what stage of companies do they invest in? What industries do they invest in? Do they do follow on investments? Or do they typically just write one check size? Do they invest in multiple stages in a company or they just specify specialist at say, something like seed or pre seed or series A, so know all of those things. But for me, again, I was doing those direct investments. So it was largely an exercise again, if I’m trying to get access to the best deals, he I’ve done this reflection exercise of trying to think really deeply and thoughtfully and realistically about the types of deals in companies I can get into any fund I’m adding into the mix is because I think they will see things and they will they will see different companies and they will be able to pick and choose those deals as thoughtfully as I would with my own capital, or I have conviction that they’re going to do it right, do it well. And some of these, I’ll just throw out one other thing. One other heuristic that I found really useful is just really looking for skin in the game. So most of the funds that I try to invest in, and this is just a general rule of thumb I’ve taken of anytime I’m giving someone else my capital, I always always always want to make sure that they the partners and the people managing that fun have substantial skin in the game. And you know, what does that mean? And why is that important? skin in the game really just says, you know, in venture like we talked about, there’s something called Curie, which basically says you know, if you are just going to make a really crude, bad analogy here. If you invest $10, and into this investment with this fund, and let’s say they generate a $20 return. So at the end of the day, you’re going to get twice your money back. They’re going to take 25% or 20% of that return back. skin in the game on the positive side. That means If they do the investments, you know if they do a good job of finding the right companies and getting into those deals at the right valuations for the right terms, and holding on to those well liquidating those Well, again, there’s a lot of things that go into realizing really great returns at the end of the day, it’s not just picking the companies, it’s all the decisions between, from the start of a deal all the way to when something eventually liquidated, you know, you so you want to understand what that process looks like, I totally lost my train of thought
Shawn Flynn 10:29
underwriting LP versus a startup or an individual company investment, and you’re talking about picking the right font.
Daniel Scrivner 10:38
Yeah, you want to look at what their process looks like from the time they start a conversation all the way to when something is liquidated. That only gives you a sense, if you’re thinking about carry that skin in the game, on the upside, what you want to always see is skin in the game on the downside, and what that means is, ideally, the reason that’s important is anybody that you’re giving money to, you want them to be incredibly thoughtful with it, because yes, your goal of giving them that money is that they multiply it, one of the other things that can happen is that they don’t multiply your money, they lose your money. And typically how that happens is people aren’t, they don’t have a high enough bar. And they’re not being thoughtful enough, diligent enough about investing your capital. And so what I always want to see is skin in the game on the downside. And what that really looks like is how much money of the total amount this fund is raising is being contributed by the partners. And typically what you’ll find if you look at that, and I’ve seen so many of these pitches. Now there’s so many ways that people try to spend this of saying, we’re giving x percentage of one set, I’ve seen funds being like, Oh, well, the GPS and our team is will be contributing 2% of the capital. And if you actually dig into that, one, I think 2% is egregiously low. If you’re raising a fund, I’ve made a rule of thumb, especially for the fund that I run, where I’m a GP, I will always be more than 10% of the capital in any deal and any fund I raise. And for me, that’s honestly the lowest I think that bar should be, because that means that one of every $10 that you’re investing is one of your own. I think anytime you have that skin in the game, not just on the upside, but on the downside, so again, if one of every $10 is yours, and you lose 50% of the value of the fund, you know, you’re going to take a substantial hit personally and
Shawn Flynn 12:17
square goes public, but then you decide to leave Silicon Valley, the bay area for Colorado. Why did you decide this move in? Do you see this as a trend happening? I mean, now in COVID? I’m seeing it, but do you see it happening post COVID in the new norm.
Daniel Scrivner 12:33
At the end of the day, that decision was super personal. My wife and I had spent 10 years in San Francisco, we had an incredible time there. But we knew that that we knew that wasn’t where we wanted to be long term. And just to say, that doesn’t mean that there’s anything bad about Silicon Valley or about barrier about San Francisco, like anywhere else. there’s pros and cons. And I think those areas now are probably more polarizing than they’ve been in the past, you know, San Francisco is going through a pretty rough time. At the moment, I have no, I think I think it’ll be just fine in the end for San Francisco. And for Silicon Valley. I don’t think any of this is a death knell for any of those kinds of places, or the you know, that kind of environment in the US. But things are definitely changing. But that decision for us was really just we knew it wasn’t where we wanted to be long term. One thing that I had thought a lot about being in San Francisco, there’s a bunch of pros, and there’s a bunch of cons. The pros are really, I think, for anyone that’s interested in working with early-stage companies, whether as an employee, whether as an investor, whether as an advisor, you have to do some tour of duty to kind of earn your stripes and to be able to get respect, because it’s a at the end of the day. It’s a very small industry. It’s a very small group of people. It’s very tribal. And I think a you know, a good in a bad sense sometimes. But I think it’s mostly good, you have to prove that you can add value, you can be successful here, and you have to build up a bit of a reputation. And so I think it was enormously important, especially for the investing, advising work that I still do that I spent time there that I have those kind of data points to point to that I still try to cultivate a ton of relationships in San Francisco. So that’s the pros, the cons, were, you know, one, I wanted to when I when I looked forward into how I might want to invest five years or 10 years down the road, I wanted to not invest all of my capital in San Francisco, you know, and I think today, if I was starting out today, and this is the approach I’m doing, and for anyone listening, I would encourage you to think about this too. If you rewind, say 10 years ago, San Francisco is really bad. But now New York companies are doing tremendously well. Man early stage, you know, so there’s a lot of really interesting opportunities there. So I felt like I wanted to build a network or have a network in New York, that same things happening in LA, that same things happening in Texas, that same things happen, you know, in places like Austin, Texas, we’re seeing now is it’s really there’s I think if you’re in if you’re investing in entrepreneurship, part of your strategy is investing at the earliest stages. And it’s typically venture backed companies and it used to be you could do that in one geographic market. And now that’s starting to happen all over the US and what you’re seeing is there’s very different dynamics, you know, you can get into deals and offices In Texas, and in the Midwest, at insanely low multiples of what that if that same company were in San Francisco or in New York, they all I will say it, that doesn’t mean that it’s a better deal, you’re not a value investor, if you’re investing in early stage companies, you, what you’re ultimately trying to find is you’re making a bet that this company can scale and achieve success in a huge way. And you’re going to be compensated to the degree to which they’re able to do that. And so a lot of companies in the Midwest are going to be challenged there, they might not be able to have a breakout company, we’re starting to see some of those things happening, though. And I think directionally What that means is, I fully expect 10 years down the road that most funds in, you know, we’re already seeing this from the majority of the top tier funds are not investing in one geographic area, they’re investing in in a more diversified way, they may still have the best network and the best advantage in a specific geographic market. But I think that’s another advantage for individual investors is we don’t have any of those super hard constraints, we can be more agnostic, we can be a little bit more eccentric, you know, with how we want to invest. And so that’s, that’s what I saw. And I think the big benefits of leaving is, I now think of San Francisco as one of multiple markets that I want to invest in, I want to have relationships, and I want to have a network and I want to have investments in it. It allowed me to be a little bit out of the fray and a little bit out of the bubble. So I think I can also judge things a little bit more objectively.
Shawn Flynn 16:19
From my understanding, I mean, even though you’re in Colorado, now, you’re not resting at all. In fact, from my understanding, you invested in a company, and it evolved to now you’re currently the CEO of this startup. Can you talk a little bit about this company, what you’re doing and that transition? And how you stepped in to be the CEO? And what were the some of the surprises you uncovered?
Daniel Scrivner 16:42
I took over a little bit over a year and a half ago at a company called flow. It’s actually based in Canada, I can find out more about to get flow COMM And I had never invested in it. But I knew one of the partners that helped run it. So flow is a subsidiary of tiny capital in Canada. It’s managed by two incredible guys named Andrew Wilkinson and Chris Burling. And the model, basically, the quick story of tiny is, they started out with agency called metal app, which is still run, while they were there, very much like 37 signals, they encountered the same problem that a lot of agencies have, you know, inherently like work ebbs and flows. And so there are times that you don’t have a lot of client projects to do, what do you do with that time. And so what metta lab did was they worked on a few things that they felt and hopefully could be a really successful standalone product. And one of those was flow. And so flow actually was spun out of metta lab, and launched about 10 years ago, I’ve known Andrew Wilkinson for 10 years, I haven’t known him super closely, although we’ve stayed in touch. During that time, I’ve really enjoyed talked on and off, I really enjoyed watching what he had done and how he involved tiny. So we had a conversation this probably two years ago. Now he is he’s from the tiny space in Canada. Flow is actually based in Victoria, British Columbia. But Andrew and Chris, we’re actually going to be in Boulder, Colorado, which is where my office is during the week. And so I asked him if we could go grab coffee and went into that meeting with nothing, no other intentions than just like, Man, I’m super excited to get to chat and actually catch up and talk in person with Andrew and Chris, coming out of that meeting. You know, that meeting really quickly turned to from me learning more about what’s been going on to me getting asked a bunch question like what are you interested in now? What are you focused on? What are you excited about Anderson master doing this. And so by the time that meeting at wrap, it ended in a very different way than I thought it would went into that meeting. But by the end of that meeting, it was, it felt like there was a really interesting opportunity for me to come in and take over as one of the CEOs of their portfolio companies. And so we continued talking for six months, and it was a six-month process of kind of them vetting Me, me vetting me vetting them, totally I took over as a CEO of flow, was just to try to contextualize that a little bit. And that was the first time It’s the first time I’ve ever been the CEO of a company. I’ve launched companies of my own. I’ve run small businesses of my own. But I think being the CEO, a company that you really intend to scale is very different. I was excited about it for a few reasons. Number one, I as an investor, you know, you build up a tremendous amount of respect and admiration for the entrepreneurs that you get to invest in, because they’re really the ones doing the hard work if you’re, if you’re being honest with yourself. And being an entrepreneur is often brutally, brutally difficult. And so I felt like as an investor, you know, and this is very much what I remember when I was at square, you know, I joined as a product designer and ended up getting offered about six months into working at square with the opportunity to take over for the design team and ended up doing that. And that’s what helped me be able to join the leadership team and lead at square in a really big way when I was there. Similarly, when I was making that decision, whether to lead the team, I didn’t know if I was really interested at that time. But the thought that kept bubbling up is at the end of the day, whether you’re successful at this or not, which a lot of that in my mind is just fear just butting its head and being you know, kind of like Well, I’m thinking about immediately jumping to all the ways this could go wrong. And that’s typically not how life or anything works if you really apply yourself, but I felt like if I wasn’t able to be successful in this role, I will still have it learned a tremendous amount that will make me a better leader, it’ll make me a better designer, it’ll make me a better leader of design teams. And it’ll give me a really interesting window into leading at larger scale businesses. And so I took that same approach to, to taking over at Flo and I felt like I would learn a lot, it would help me become a better and faster, it would help me really understand what it takes to be able to lead a company and all the intricacies and challenges that come with that. And just really quickly, I mean, it has been brutally difficult, but it’s been immensely rewarding. For anyone that’s going from not being an entrepreneur, you know, basically, anyone who’s a first-time entrepreneur, it is an incredibly difficult act, I also made it much more difficult on myself than it traditionally is. So I took over for a company that has 10 years of history, I took over a team, you know that I didn’t hire all our incredible people. But you know, it’s, I think it’s different. When you kind of inherit a team and take over a team. It’s more about building trust with that team really trying to figure out what they’re great at, and really making sure they’re in the best roles. But a lot of it is honestly building trust with that team. And, you know, we were also a bootstrap company that had taken very little outside capital in the company was contracting, all those factors are in play. And my goal when I took overflow was to come in and take a different strategy than the previous management team. The you know, the idea that I had was kind of inverting the previous equation, which is very focused on just user acquisition. And I guess what I recognized and flow is if the business is contracting, that’s clearly for a reason. And I still think it’s because we’re not advertising correctly, I think we should probably pause and take a step back and really look at why people are turning. And if you have a SaaS business, it’s part, you know, I would say it’s primarily because of the product, but you know, achieve product market fit, or you haven’t been able to maintain product market fit, which is really the problem. I think, when you get you know, 510 years into a company, I took over for flow in March of 2019. And it’s taken us 18 months, but we’ve been able to turn around the business and get back to growth. And we did that by literally from the ground up rebuilding the product that we have, so that it could compete with all the players that we compete with in the productivity space. And just really quickly, I haven’t I haven’t mentioned it. But what flow is, is we’re really building a productivity platform for teams. And we’re trying to pursue an approach in building a really powerful all in one tool. So you have one single tool you can use for chat, real time communication that you can use for tracking high level work and objectives through projects that you can use for tracking really low-level work in terms of what everyone on the team needs to do and by when and what all the details are for that work and tasks. And helping teams really be able to use less tools get more done and make time for the deep work that actually needs to happen. Because the experience that I’ve had in previous teams is you’re trying to move the ball forward and all the important things you need to get done. And throughout the day, you’re being bombarded by emails and text messages and meetings and slack notifications. And I feel like so much of work today is honestly doing whatever you can to try to ignore all those things and shut out the world so you can get work done. And so the idea with flow is we’re trying to build a tool that’s really built around and supports deep work and move us towards a world where we all use fewer tools, we have less passwords to manage less certifications to juggle, and we can actually move the ball forward.
Shawn Flynn 23:09
Okay, so with everything that you’ve done your career, you’ve gained knowledge, you’ve gained an amazing network, you’ve gained money, from your experience of all those things, knowledge, experience, network money, those four, what’s the most valuable to you?
Daniel Scrivner 23:25
I would always say knowledge. And you know, I think part of that’s just navall raava Khan has a great quote, which is you know about if you know, we live in a world with multiple dimensions, and you can be really successful in one, you know, what you really want to try to do is be able to have the knowledge and the experience and the understanding, to say be successful in 99 out of 100 alternate universes. So if you were to start from scratch a bunch of different realities, a bunch of different worlds, and you would be able to figure out how to be successful and each of those be able to be successful, build great, build a great network, you know, just be able to work with really incredible people, I think to be able to do that it really all comes down to knowledge. And so that’s, you know, for me, the ways I’ve tried to live that out is and this was a reason that I started investing a reason I started advising a reason I left Apple to go to square a reason I took over a CEO flow was, I think the best way to do that is by always optimizing for your growth curve being as steep as possible, you know, you need to make sure that you’re going in a you need to make sure you know that you’re going in a clear direction, what you’re headed towards. But if you have that clarity, then what you’re really trying to do is just kind of gain traction and not lose traction and just continue to move on to the next level. Because for me, you know, I think is as maybe cliche as it is, I think of at least the professional side of my life is very much like a video game and my job is to learn as much as I can and continue to try to get better so I can play the game at higher and higher levels. Because I think what that allows you to do is at each of those levels, if you’re doing it right, you gain more freedom, you gain more autonomy, you gain more wisdom and you hopefully are better able to live out all those principles and kind of do well by the knowledge that you have. So for me, it’s all knowledge.
Shawn Flynn 25:05
If anyone wants to find out more information about you what you’re working on flow anything, what’s the best way to go about doing it?
Daniel Scrivner 25:12
So people can follow me at everything that I write everything that I release, a Daniel scrivener.com Scrivener is SCR I v as in Victor N E R, Daniel scrivener.com. I also have a podcast called outliers. And you can see all the new episodes that we publish there on Daniel scrivener.com goal of that podcast is to interview the top 1% of people across industries. So we talk to entrepreneurs, we talk to investors, we talk to people in health and fitness people in entertainment and award-winning authors to try to deconstruct what they’ve mastered and what they’ve learned along the way. So it’s my way of trying to kind of focus on knowledge and then pass that on to other people. So people can find out more about that Daniel scripter.com, as well. And then for flow, anyone that’s interested, we’d love to have you as a customer, feel free to check out flow at get flow comm
Shawn Flynn 26:01
great. We’re gonna have all those links in the show notes. And, Daniel, I want to thank you for taking your time today to be on the Silicon Valley podcast and for our listeners. Please share this with your network and leave review on iTunes or any other podcast platform and encourages to create great content like this. So Daniel, once again, thank you for your time day on the Silicon Valley podcast.
Daniel Scrivner 26:21
Thanks so much Shawn.
Announcer 26:25
Thank you for listening to the Silicon Valley podcast. To access our resources, visit us at the Silicon Valley podcast.com and follow our host on Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn at Shawn Flynn SV. This show is for entertainment purposes only. Before making any decisions, consult a professional.
