On today’s episode, we sit down with Raymond Chen. Raymond is a board member and the President of CIE-SF, a non-profit volunteer organization. He spent 19 years in the Electronic Design Automation (EDA) software industry. As the co-founder and Senior Vice President of Sigrity, Inc., he not only led many aspects of product architecture, engineering process, customer application and support, operation and IT with a worldwide team, but also marketed and sold innovative technologies and tools to leading-edge customers in semiconductor, computer, communication, networking, and consumer electronics companies.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Is the type of research that universities do more advanced than what the private sector is capable of? Or is it the opposite and the private sector is more advanced?
- What is Electronic Design Automation software?
- How does a software company protect its software from it being stolen and IP infringement?
- What is the Chinese Institute of Engineers (CIE)?
BOOKS AND RESOURCES
- Find Raymond Chen on LinkedIn
- Chinese Institute of Engineers Website
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- Shawn Flynn’s Twitter Account
- Shawn Flynn’s LinkedIn Account
- Silicon Valley LinkedIn Group Account
- Shawn Flynn’s Facebook Account
- Email Shawn@thesiliconvalleypodcast.com
Pre-Intro 0:00
You’re listening to the Silicon Valley podcast.
Shawn 0:03
On today’s show, we sit down with Raymond Chen, who is a board member and current president of the Chinese Institute of engineers, San Francisco, a non-profit volunteer organization. Prior to this, he spent 19 years in electronic design automation software industry as the co-founder and senior vice president of Sigrity’s, the company which he founded with his college professors. On today’s show, we talk about his research in universities more advanced in the private sector, or vice versa.
Shawn 0:26
What is electronic design software ETA?
And how does the software company protect its software from it being stolen or intellectual property infringement?
And what is the Chinese Institute of engineers and much more?
And also, Raymond has offered a special bonus if you write a review on iTunes or other podcast platforms about this episode and share, which we’ll talk about more at the end of the episode. So let’s start, Enjoy.
Intro
Welcome to the Silicon Valley podcast with your host Shawn Flynn who interviews famous entrepreneurs, venture capitalists and leaders in tech. Learn their secrets and see Tomorrow’s World today.
Shawn 1:10
Raymond, thank you for taking the time today to be on Silicon Valley.
Raymond 1:14
Oh, good to be here.
Shawn
Now, Raymond, can you tell us a little bit about your history before moving to Silicon Valley?
Raymond
All right, let me start back to 20-30 years ago, after I finished my freshman year at a Shanghai, Jiotong University, I transferred to the University of New York at Binghamton. And there I finished my under and the graduate school in electrical engineering. So my life can be divided into basically three portions were the first 19 years of my youth in Shanghai, then eight years as a student in New York. Now 21 years here in the Silicon Valley, the first when I moved from Shanghai to New York, because my mom lives in New York City, and I wanted to explore a different world and just like many college kids at a time, you know, you want to get away from home and study in a faraway city, where you think the destiny mean, bring many people and things you were meant to meet in your life. So I thought to travel to US and find my destiny. The second time when I moved from New York to California, was for a start-up that I co-founded. And we saw a great potential to be successful. So we move from New York to Silicon Valley, where our customers are located. And we hired the first full time employee that year, in 1999.
Shawn 2:35
Now that company started was with your professor, what led you to start a company with him?
Raymond 2:37
That’s also interesting question. The company name the Sigrity were started when I was 23. Still, as a graduate student, I knew a few universities to start up beginning with a professor or student combo, right. So it may not be unique, but each story is a little bit different. So here’s my story… And when I came to you as a student, I was accepted by Cornell and other universities. However, because you know, my family could not afford the tuition. Instead of going to a private Ivy league. I picked at the State University in New York at Binghamton, where the tuition was drastically cheaper. And I remember the words on the beam, the university’s admission brochure highlighted that to the school as a public Ivy league. So in certain way, it is true because I’ve been I’ve met a lot of good and hardworking students, but they cannot afford expensive private institutions, so they can only attend the State University. That time professor Dr. Jioyang Fong, who just finished his PhD from UC Berkeley and started to work as a young professor there in the EE department for about a year already. He has been a hardworking and gifted scholar. That’s how I was just taking undergraduate EE class from him, and they did pretty well in his class. So one day, I just knocked on his office door and asked to see if there are any research projects that I could help him with. That was how my journey began with him. You may ask me, you know, how I could have the confidence to introduce myself to a professor and ask for an opportunity. Here’s, you know, my experience. At that time, I had been taking seven classes a semester, while working for two side jobs just to make some money, I know, cannot just wait for the opportunities to come, you must pursue them when job I did was a convenience store clerk, where I worked as a cashier, making some sandwiches, cleaner, bookkeeper, and the promoted in every job role that job requires. The other job that I worked as a technician on campus, installing campus network, and also doing some the computer electronics repair work for that tech job, I didn’t have you know, much prior experience. I just worked for free the first semester and follow the staff there and learn other skills at the field. Then the second semester they start to pay me. Basically, I like the way you try to sell yourself and approach to find your opportunity like a job and learning and sharpen your skill and a meeting new friends in a new environment. Actually, you know, my internship when I was a middle school student also helped me that made me feel a little bit comfortable to step out of one’s comfort zone, and also finding new opportunities and working with new people with some mentors. So come back to the past, you know, to the undergraduate study. At that time, the professor offered me an undergraduate research assistant job. I’m the only undergraduate assistant in his group. The problem we are studying we were studying was a summer leading edge research topic. His research attracted the interest from the industry, research foundations, as well as government agencies, the support from He received almost more than one half of the entire EE department. So when I graduate as an undergraduate, as a top in my class, I start to look for graduate school. I did get accepted in Cornell again. However, after a lot of thoughts, I decided to not to leave SUNY Binghamton. The reason being is I clearly remember one day, we’ll have a senior professor who wrote my recommendation letter, stopped by in the lab and chatted with me. He said, Raymond, I think you should stay and follow with Dr Fong, because I think he is destined to be successful. So that’s some kind of very short, persuasive message. And that made me stay in the State University of New York in Hampton and continue my research. So continue my legislator after two years. I finished my master degree they’re writing the essay about a research topic we have been doing, but after the graduation of the master degree, I decided to work full time, in this two person start up, as a co-founder. This was kind of against the advice from my family relatives who thought I should look for a job in a big corporation. And also, I didn’t continue my PhD study. This is kind of also against my mom’s wish. I commit 100% to the commercial success of this small start-up.
Shawn 7:24
So Raymond, first off EE electrical engineering. Correct. And then I have to ask, in the research that is in the university, is that more advanced than what we see in the private sector? Or is it the opposite, where the private sector is normally more advanced more ahead of what’s going on in the university research labs.
Raymond 7:39
The academic research in the university is very advanced, because we learn the problems and challenges from the leading edge industry partners. The being of the area was the birthplace of IBM, you may know that our academic research goal was to study some of the fundamental issues at a time like IBM, Intel or HP and other top companies had commonly faced in their next generation product design. When we were studying those issues, the majority of the electrical industry had yet to see or understand those problems. So we were very early to do research in that area. After we develop the solutions, the kind of very specialized software for electrical design is very early. It was like the early adopters market. But fortunately, as we predict with the advancement of the electronic design in the last two decades, those problems and the challenges they don’t become very mainstream and our solution or become widely adopted by almost all the companies will need to do electronic design. The novel method that we developed, helping to the advanced multi gigahertz design was complex and a small geometry feature. One interesting thing though, the foundation of the algorithm that models and assimilate to the real world was based on a set of equation for the Maxwell equation of 150 years ago. The equation describes the relationship between electrical and magnetic fields and waves, charges, currents voltages. And the change of these variables in the time and frequency domain was a material property and light propagation speed. So it sounds complicated. It is probably the most important equation related to today’s technology world. Our research first helped us understand the physics of the general problem and the uniqueness of that issue. Then a special approach was developed to efficiently solve the Maxwell equation. That’s about the research self-nature of the research.
Shawn 9:44
So it Raymond I got two questions for you then. I mean, one, can you talk a little bit more about the start of the company and then also in that lead into maybe a little bit more information on electronic design software? What ADA is you just mentioned it I’m very excited. Curious to know more
Raymond 10:03
Sure, the company initially was a partnership between me and my professor. Later on, we incorporate so that we can issue stock option to employee, the company we did, focus is kind of transfer the research in the university from an algorithm, new methods commercial success. So the company itself, without this potential method because, we see a great way to make a success software to be used by the industry partners. That’s also the reason I didn’t continue to do my PhD study, because I want to commit 100% to make sure you’re successful, you know, in the research paper, or student code, they can never be practical solutions. You really have to have a commercial company, which is dedicated to develop by a software engineer approach to make the software practical, useful in the real industry. At that time, I was pretty good at programming after the company really begin to operate it Focus on the leadership and the solving business and the custom issues. So actually, I never caught it again, all my effort was to leave the business into the next stage just had to give up something in order to learn a new skill. So that’s what the start-up experience I had is. The other thing is about the EDA business, right? The EDA is called electronic design automation industry. It is a category of software tools for design electronic systems, such as integrated circuit, IC, or printed circuit boards, PCBs. Only sophisticated software can manage those enums tiny electrical circuits and the 3d geometry connections to ensure the logic and the physical correctness in the design for ever increasing speed and the performance of those electronic systems and of course, low power requirements. The companies around the world in semiconductor or computer communication, networking, consumer electronics, automobile space industry, they all to use EDA software to design their products. most dominant EDA software companies, there are only a couple of them are actually in the US and they are in here in Silicon Valley, and different EDA tools are used at various design stages. The company we founded called Sigrity, its software covered a few areas, such as design and analysis, modelling and assimilation, signal and power integrity that were the main areas.
Shawn 12:27
So Raymond when you and your professor left the university to start the company? How did you get the license? How does one get licensed for technology from a university?
Raymond 12:37
The university encouraged the research results to be commercialized in order to benefit the industry partners Research Institute and the nation. A research paper of course, as I said previously, is not a solution. Only a well-run company can help that make it as a software. So University understood that principle and again give us a lot of support, the technology was patented, my professor was the inventor and the University own the right. And our start-up company became the licensee to develop this technology into a commercial software, and to pay the royalty back to the university when we sell. So due to the success of our product at end the university ended up receiving a historical amount of writing money, and we hired a lawyer to negotiate the terms with university to ensure each side was protected at early on, right. So in case if we got acquired, or if someone was infringing the patent. So the early terms help with that. And those well thought causes proved to be very useful down the road.
Shawn 13:34
Raymond, that’s fascinating. I mean, there’s so much technology being developed in the universities right now. And I’m sure there’s a lot of entrepreneurs out there that want to be able to get that technology transferred and to build companies around it. But does that limit maybe resources or funding? I mean, what are the different phases of funding that accompany we can get for research and milestones that are needed to be met for that funding.
Raymond 14:03
I think we were very fortunate to obtain the seed money from NSF SBR grant. That’s the National Science Foundation Small Business Innovation Research Program. The NSF sol program focuses on transforming scientific discovery into products and services with commercial potential and the social benefit. Unlike a fundamental research, the NSF SPR program supports start-ups and the small business in the creation of deep technologists getting discouraged out of the lab and into the market. And this give you the money for free without asking for equity as a return. That’s very good part right. So it is an excellent program from our government. We received all three phases of funding 75 k in phase one, 400 k in phase two and the 200 k in phase Two B that it was considered a very good amount of seed money around the 1996. Right at the time before the internet boom, the NSFSBIR program funds research and development. The program is designed to provide the entrepreneur support at very early stage of a company for their prototyping and technology development. The RD milestones need to be outlined in the proposal for you to get the funding and the semi-annual progress report needs to be submitted. Sigrity was a very successful story for these SPI programs. And because of that, I was invited back to NSF SBR conference to share our company’s story.
Shawn 15:44
Also have that so it sounds like you never gave up equity. I mean, it sounds like you grew organically. What are the advantages and disadvantages of this?
Raymond 15:54
Besides the early seed money we obtained from National Science Foundation, we also raised a million Dollar from angel investment, just as a cushion for our expanded business operation, we have always been, you know, cash flow positive, which is a fortune since the very beginning when we secured our first three customers, IBM, Intel and HP lab, we even self-funded through acquisitions during those years. The advantage without VC funding is of course, no equity dilution. All the shares belong to the company and its employees. And you can have total control of your company, you can put your customers and the products as a priority and set the long-term goals. Investors goal sometimes you know, it’s different than the founders, while the investor may simply be more focused on the exit strategy in the shortest time frame possible. That’s by nature, right. And I do have a friend’s company that they were quickly sold after VC investment and VC brought on a high-profile CEO before reaching its full potential. So getting outside funding sometimes may not line up with founder scope. But however, there’s also disadvantage, right? If we think we did get more outside funding, we may have more other choices, because we could have had the advantage of growing bigger by acquisition, if we have the funds instead of being acquired. At that time, when our company was part of that you will think of acquiring another company as a target. But at that time, I knew a lot less about investment or financial transactions. So that time, my own experience and the network were very limited, even though we grow the company organically one step at a time, but the we lacked not have enough experience or ability or position to grow the company for much larger corporation. So if you have outside funding without experience, how will those investigate and bring strategic much higher-level vision to the company to help them grow out of the original founder’s capability? They, they know, I think I know a bit more people at the network, and then possibly who can invest 100 million dollars. So the business expansion could be a very different story.
Shawn 18:11
So Raymond, you sold your company. But if you were to go back right now and kind of think about the whole strategy of acquisition or information you’ve gathered over the years, what information can you tell us or teach us about the whole acquisition experience? Or what you would do different now or think about now?
Raymond 18:28
Definitely, there’s something I can think of. If you do, you may do it differently. Right. One example first, let me illustrate that led to why think differently is Yahoo and Alibaba do they did in 2005. At that time, Yahoo was much big company, and Alibaba was small Yahoo pursue to acquire Alibaba. They give $1 billion investment to Alibaba. And also they give the Yahoo China the entire China to Alibaba to manage. In return, they asked 40% share of Alibaba. Equity. And actually now this 40% share of Alibaba became more valuable they itself, the lesson I learned there is typically a big company want to hire you because they have money, but their product may be sold. But the start-up has more talent in the team and the growing product, but the big company has the market, they have a lot of cloud, right? They can offer money to buy, but if a big company just acquire you and merchant wisdom, then the small company may lose some uniqueness over there. So if you have outside funding, if I would do differently, I may get some outside funding. And instead just like the Alibaba Yahoo deal, you can acquire the big company, at least out there is a unit. So you as a small company, you become the leader in that business unit, you taking charge was additional funding. So you can do this cortisol acquisition to grow was the outset system.
Shawn 19:49
So Raymond, I forgot to ask the very beginning why move the company to Silicon Valley.
Raymond 19:58
Location, location, location.
Shawn 19:57
Tell me about the location why the location here was so important at that time.
Raymond 20:01
Silicon Valley is the center of EDA business. Most of famous EDA companies are located within 20 minutes from this office, and many electronic companies, our customers are here. And he can also find all the talents business technical in the Silicon Valley.
Shawn 20:23
I also have to ask, I mean, it’s always in the news. It’s always a big deal. Intellectual Property IP protection. How does the software company protected software from it being stolen and its IP intellectual property being infringed upon?
Raymond 20:41
Well, software is used for you will see pirated copies right. The worst fights nobody wants to use, or steal your software. So though we use a commercial licensing solution, such as license server or hardware dongle, and the enhanced was our own scheme, it was still very hard to prevent piracy since you know hackers could crack the security to the root level, I saw some practice versions of our software, some of the bulletin boards or forums. It’s hard to pursue those situations. But we saw more relied on our sales people to work with our companies, our customers to ensure they buy adequate amount of copies of software. And also we ran into situation when a public company tried to sell the product with very similar or the same technology, we had patented technology. So in this situation in general, you know, we, at that time, a small company cannot match the financial and the legal resource of a big company. It’s a challenge, right? But fortunately, in our case, the patented technology we licensed was from the university. So the university helped us and the initial a legal action, and in the end successfully protected our interest.
Shawn 21:48
Wow, that’s amazing that the relationship with the university stayed that long and I never thought about, I mean, one the resources that they have that could be a very huge advantage to a start-up. You built this company for years and years, but then you finally decided time to leave time to sell it. What were the steps that led you to the sale of your company?
Raymond 22:11
You’re talking about the entire development lifecycle of the company, our business during the 17 years, right? We try many ways to expand business we establish more than 10 sales and support offices around the world. We have done acquisitions. For example, we acquired one business units from a public company to become our own product line. And we have tried to merge with another small company so that we can become bigger enough for an IPO. But in the end, we you know, we have studied the exits from other similar companies. We have seen some of our successful peers, which reached 300 million or $300 million in size, and some of them had a very successful IPO on NASDAQ, but they all got acquired in the end because that’s the reality and the cycle in the EDA industry, because there’s only two or three very large public companies exist. So small or medium company. In the end, they all got acquired.
Shawn 23:10
Interested, once your company was acquired, what did you decide to focus your time on? Because I’m guessing you went from an 80 Hour Workweek to now having some free time, how was that transition?
Raymond 23:23
Free time? I wish because kind of retired off with a financial freedom. I’m still very busy, because a family of three kids as you know, so I spend less time with the family members and I do investment. There’s a lot of financial investment, other technology startup investment, I can talk about. Also I coaching small start-up, some the portfolio company where I invested, I helped them to give some suggestions to coach the CEOs about operation about product development, sales and marketing. And the reason I spend most of my time as a volunteer in a non-profit organization called CIE.
Shawn 24:04
Before talking about CIE, a Chinese Institute of engineers, let’s go back to what you just mentioned about investing in companies. Can you talk about some of the companies you’ve invested in and what they’re working on?
Raymond 24:18
One of my investment in company has a very interesting technology. It’s a team from Taiwan. And they developed a unique medical device, you know, people doing a biopsy to confirm cancer or disease. And that process has been the same for the last hundred years of target example from patient’s body and a biopsy by cutting the frozen example and look under microscope. So patient need to be on the operating table and away for one hour just to get this tempo frozen and cut and the use of microscope at the cell level. So this company developed a new kind of device dedicated scan through the thousand sample without needing to cut it at the micro meter level and each layer scan through will have a 3d data, digital and a 3d image at the cell level with high resolution. So it’s kind of digitize the biopsy procedure in a much quicker way. In few minutes, you will be able to see all the detail that confirm whether you have a cancer cell or not. So that will revolutionize the entire diagnosis procedure make it much quicker and digitize and efficient. So this is one of the portfolio company I invest and also I work with CEO’s try to how to bring this university researchers from university into a commercial product because a good breakthrough product in large part like that is very promising but sell into a hospital or a Research Institute actually is totally different story.
Shawn 25:49
And then when you’re working with these companies, I mean you have these 17 years of experience. How is the dynamics between you and maybe the CEO of this company that this is their first start up, they may not have any working experience outside of the university. How do you coach them? How do you mentor them? What’s that relationship look like?
Raymond 26:10
First, as a friend, those companies I invest, not only because I look at the potential there, but I mean, also the people, I don’t just look at financial return to use. Of course, this has to be the goal. More likely, it’s, I have my personal interest in there. So we are the founder, we share the same passion for the product for the business. So we can talk we can relate and a main of my past experience during my company time are the similar issues that the other CEOs or the founders, they will encounter. So we can either relate to each other. So what I’ll do is just share my story, and that they can understand and that the solution or the choices, or suggestions provided usually feel very useful. So just like friends, talking chatty and tell them what I’ve seen. During my time, and they appreciate that. So it’s quite easy going on situation there.
Shawn 27:04
And then I also am kind of curious, how do you find out about these companies? Are you looking at research papers? Are you networking? Or are people coming to you and saying, I have an interest in idea or this is a company I’m working on? Or is it a network that you’ve built?
Raymond 27:20
I’m not a full-time investor. So I don’t really go through many cases or listen to pitch 10 brochures, mainly, it’s a friend recommendation, because the founding team at those companies refer to me as a friend. So I need to know their personality as well. And then they approached me and if I feel interest at a click, then we start to work together.
Shawn 27:45
And you’d mentioned before CIA, Chinese Institute of engineers, can you talk a little bit about that organization, its history, a little bit more about it?
Raymond 27:55
Yeah, is that tell you even though the investment or couldn’t stops, they are occupied, probably less than one third of the time. So most of my major effort was putting into this non-profit volunteer organization. The Chinese Institute of engineers USA is an organization for Chinese American engineers, scientists, and other professionals. It was founded in 1917, which is more than 100 years ago. The objective of the CIE USA is to promote science, engineering, technology and mathematics, stem, encourage professional advancement and the leadership development for Asian Americans as one of the oldest and the most prestigious Chinese American engineer Association in the US. CIE has seven area chapters across the nation and the host many events. And actually we just had a few events as weekend and we’re going to have one more seminar this Wednesday. Besides those monthly events in each and every local region, we also have a major annual awards and conferences at the national level.
Shawn 29:00
And then Raymond, what is your position in this amazing organization?
Raymond 29:06
My current role in CIE is a board member, and also the president of the CIE, Silicon Valley chapter, how I start to get to know the CIE USA is also introduced by friends. Because when my friend was a CIE member, he knew that I was retired. And he asked, why don’t I just help out at this non-profit organization? Back to the 15 years ago, I give a lecture at one of the CIE events as a speaker, and also I participate in some of their amazing event. So I know a little bit about who they are, what they did. So after my company got acquired after some free time, as I mentioned, so I start to volunteer in that organization, just as a regular volunteer that later on about four years ago, I become a board member, and then move on to become the secretary, then vice president and now become the president of the CIE USA Silicon Valley chapter. So in CIE Silicon Valley chapters 40 years history, I’m the 40th president.
Shawn 29:58
Raymond, congratulations on being the 40th. President. But I got to ask, with all this wisdom that you have, from all this experience, what advice do you have for the next generation engineers or entrepreneurs, or children in general that are growing up right now that one day might want to kind of follow in your footsteps? What advice can you give them?
Raymond 30:25
Probably I can just use some of the tips I give to my own kids, right, based upon my personal experience during the school years, and my, startup company with my professor. First you want to learn the skill, even without pay. That’s okay. Because that’s my technician job experience. You work for free. You’ll learn the skills and the second working some of the small job roles or how to deal with various customers, just like I worked in the convenience store as a clerk. Third, you always want to find a job, yourself and the opportunity yourself. Learn how to sell you as a person, your skill set and your charisma fourth if you can afford, of course, you can go to Ivy. But even if you cannot, that’s okay. A school university provides you all the opportunities in your life. So basically, any schooling environment allows you to shy. The last one, find the mentors, or teachers who can appreciate your ability and your character, and who can give you important advice and follow them. So I think, you know, grasping the opportunity is very, very important. Transition is important. Starting early, of course, is a big plus, and doing the things you’re passionate is important. One of my professors I remember in the school when I PhD to the start-up actually is due to his advice, another professor, because one time he said, Oh, Raymond, I thought you are, you know, pretty good and had the potential to do business well, so maybe you should not just study PhD as a professor. He said occasionally some business measurement. So the professor sometimes give interest in solving suggestions. so helpful the opportunity wise, one very important thing is you want to grasp wants, if you can win the idea that as an undergrad student, as I met my beautiful wife at a school party.
Shawn 32:10
that’s amazing how fate just kind of works out and Raymond, are there any events coming up with the Chinese Institute of Engineering, any big events that if someone wants to go to or find out more about the organization that you might be able to mention?
Raymond 32:38
I do want to tell the audience some of the important amazing events we can have. One of them is we are currently preparing the 2020 early why award conference. AAEOY stands for the Asian American engineer of the year. It’s an annual event on a national platform to recognize and honour Outstanding Asian American professionals in science and engineering for their technical achievements, leadership and the public services. The past awardees included nine Nobel laureates, an astronaut, university or academia, leaders in a corporation, executives, and etc. CIE Silicon Valley chapter, our chapter is hosting this event. And I’m currently the AAEOY National Committee Chair. So we are quite busy planning all the event activities. It’ll be a two-day program so you can find out more about this event at aaeoy.org.
Shawn 33:27
Great and Raymond if anyone wants to find out more information about you or get in contact with you, what’s the best way to go about doing that?
Raymond 33:32
Find me on LinkedIn. You can search first name Raymond yuzhe, and you should be able to direct message me even without connecting.
Shawn 33:44
And then I also want to thank Raymond one more time for his time. And Raymond also offered a special gift for a few events coming up for the Chinese Institute engineers. If you write a review on iTunes, Stitcher or other platforms about this episode, we will put your name into a raffle to get a coupon code for one of these events. So like and share. And once again, Raymond, thank you again for your time today on Silicon Valley.
Raymond
It’s good to have me here. Thank you.
Outro
Thank you for listening to the Silicon Valley podcast. To access our resources, visit us at TheSiliconValleyPodcast.com and follow our host on Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn @ ShawnFlynnSV. This show is for entertainment purposes only and is licensed by the investors Podcast Network. Before making any decisions, consult a professional.
